Friday, January 16, 2009

I heart Hamas

Kind of like I Love Lucy, with far less laughs and less awesome redheads.

I've seen and heard a lot of total, utter bullshit in the last few weeks about how Teh Left luffs Hamas and has pictures of their favourite idiot terrorists benevolent freedom fighters on their bedroom walls, and how we all hate Teh Jooz. Or, as everyone's favourite Queensland bloger puts it;

"We all know very well how much hatred and contempt that the left have for the Jews in general"


So let me take this opportunity to state, without equivication, that any person - regardless of how righteous they think their fight is - who kills a civlian in cold blood is a murderer, and I hold no truck with them. That, obviously, includes Hamas.

Also, Israel? Seriously, dude, we get it. Big guns. Big bombs, not happy with Hamas. But why take it out on the UN?

But, to everyone in that region, I ask the following favour:

Stop. Blowing. Shit. Up.

Post coming up on why I'm no big fan of Israel's response, and why it has absolutely nothing to do with who's doing the bombing.

***UPDATE*** Iain Hall, the author of the above quote, has taken exception to me "selectively quoting" him and not including the source of the quote. I should have course have included the source of the quote, but his contention that I was "selectively quoting" I refute. The orginal sentence:

"We all know very well how much hatred and contempt that the left have for the Jews in general and the existence of Israel in particular, lets just hope that the voters of Wentworth are smart enough to see that even the more “moderate” tip of the leftist Ice-berg that wears a Ruddite face conceals a rather more nasty and extreme ideology"


not only reads like a paragraph rather than a sentence, but contains an irrelevant call for the voters of Wentworth to reject the ALP canditate. This far out from the election I didn't think it worth including.

However, since the point was in dispute, I thought it worth including the full "sentence"

35 comments:

Kartar said...

Where does:

"We all know very well how much hatred and contempt that the left have for the Jews in general"

... leave the lefty Jews? Filled with self-loathing?

I am confused.

iainhall said...

Keri
Please Put up the whole sentence and a link to its origin if you don't mind.
I though that you were above selective quoting

Jeremy said...

I'll be fascinated as to what conceivable "context" can undo iain's quoted comment.

John Surname said...

"I'll be fascinated as to what conceivable "context" can undo iain's quoted comment."

Keri left out the last line "and Israel in particular."

Kartar said...

Hmmm still don't see how the last line changes much. Sounds like a sweeping and irrational generalisation.

Still wondering if Rosa Luxemburg and Leon Trotsky (or Lev Davidovich Bronstein) were filled with self-loathing. Odd.

iainhall said...

Jeremy
I in no way retreat from what I said in the post that the quote comes from, an instance when a lefty was rather open about her "anti-Zionism*" Now you are welcome to agree or not with my contention about elements of the left and their anti-Semitism but there is an awful lot of it out there and it is your side of politics who will suffer in the eyes of the public over this and denying that anti-Semitism exists among the ranks of your beloved left is not going to make it go away.
* code for anti-Semitism

Jeremy said...

Iain, there's plenty of anti-semitism on the right, too - look at neo-Nazi "Australia First" skinheads.

But I'm not tarring all rightwingers on the basis of a few idiots.

Have you considered doing us lefties the same courtesy?

Keri said...

As am I, Kartar, as am I.

Iain - I had every intention of linking to the source, that was simply an oversight.

As for "selective quoting", Iain, considering you've already admitted that the quote is something you don't back down from, and that the quote I've included means EXACTLY THE SAME THING, it's hardly selective quoting. I will include the source, and in this case, I'll include the last line, but have you considered the fact that the last line actually strengthens my point?

"an instance when a lefty was rather open about her "anti-Zionism*"

An instance? You make a sweeping generalisation, admit that it's a generalisation and hope to retain some sense of credibility with reference to one instance?

By the same logic, I could claim that all right-wingers/conservatives hate Arab nations and want to nuke them, by citing one instance (KG, unsurprisingly)

Seem logical? Still want to run with your generalisations?

iainhall said...

Jeremy

But I'm not tarring all rightwingers on the basis of a few idiots.

Have you considered doing us lefties the same courtesy?

But I have already conceded that not all lefties are anti-Semites but you and others want to believe that there almost none.

Keri

Iain - I had every intention of linking to the source, that was simply an oversight.

As for "selective quoting", Iain, considering you've already admitted that the quote is something you don't back down from, and that the quote I've included means EXACTLY THE SAME THING, it's hardly selective quoting. I will include the source, and in this case, I'll include the last line, but have you considered the fact that the last line actually strengthens my point?

What a around the houses response
Here is the whole sentence.

We all know very well how much hatred and contempt that the left have for the Jews in general and the existence of Israel in particular, lets just hope that the voters of Wentworth are smart enough to see that even the more “moderate” tip of the leftist Ice-berg that wears a Ruddite face conceals a rather more nasty and extreme ideology.
source


by all means read the post and the comments thread .

"an instance when a lefty was rather open about her "anti-Zionism*"

An instance? You make a sweeping generalisation, admit that it's a generalisation and hope to retain some sense of credibility with reference to one instance?

Pull your head out of the sand Keri and examine some of the things that are being openly said by your fellow lefties in the light of the attacks against Hamas in Gaza. Read Nick Cohen's excellent book "what's next for the left" as I have and you may start to see that the left is in great moral peril and no amount of denial will save it.

Finally I could very easily find many instances of anti Semitism being sprouted by lefties under the guise of "ant- Zionism" and even a fair bit quite overt anti-Semitism Band. I have pointed others to the "Eyeless in Gaza" threads At L P and another good place to look is the Damian's Gaza thread at The Bolt Blair watch blog.

Is that enough to prove to you that there is a significant problem among your beloved lefties when it comes to the Jews and Israel? Well then why don't you read this post that I liked enough to write a plug for it at my blog. and I think that the part of the piece that I quote in my post is most pertinent to this thread so please read it.

Cheers

Jeremy said...

Iain, you know perfectly well that for any "lefty" who's "anti-semitic" or "supports hamas" there are plenty who are the opposite. For you - and idiots like leon - to keep claiming such things about lefties, where pretty much every single one with whom you have contact constantly makes clear that they condemn hamas and any other organisation that kills civilians... Well, it makes you very difficult to take seriously.

iainhall said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
iainhall said...

Keri,

there were too many typos in my last comment would you mind deleting it for me and accept this corrected version instead?

Jeremy
Iain, you know perfectly well that for any "lefty" who's "anti-semitic" or "supports hamas" there are plenty who are the opposite.
Sure, and I said as much in my last comment.

That is not the point.

The point is that there is a great deal more anti-Semitism amongst the left than any of you are willing to admit.

You read lots of lefties, how may of them who claim to be "anti-Zionist" are making that admission to cover up the true nature of their feelings about Israel and the Jews? I usually think that the moment they start making excuses for they tactics of the Palestinians they are sailing very close to the wind indeed, especially when they are usually the sort of person who believes in moral absolutes.

For you - and idiots like Leon - to keep claiming such things about lefties, where pretty much every single one with whom you have contact constantly makes clear that they condemn hamas and any other organisation that kills civilians...
There is no doubt that the views Leon and I attribute to members of the left are out there, heck Leon has certainly found enough clear examples lately as you will, if you follow the leads that I put in my last comment. The real question is just how many lefties are anti -Semitic? Where we differ is that you want to think that there are almost none (and therefore suggesting there are any is a slur upon all of you) But I think that there is probably more like one in four* lefties who are sus when it comes to this question and that in terms of political morality that IS a big problem for those of you who clearly have your hearts in the right place.

Well, it makes you very difficult to take seriously.
I hope my explanation above helps you with that then. :o)
* before you ask Keri, this is a number pulled from the air

Jeremy said...

"The point is that there is a great deal more anti-Semitism amongst the left than any of you are willing to admit."

Shared, as you admit, by none of the lefties with whom you argue.

So your point is stupid. You're trying to tar us with a view we expressly don't share. You don't even follow your accusations of anti-semitism among the left with an acknowledgement that you know that pretty much every lefty with whom you argue condemns Hamas.

If you want to have a serious debate with any of us - and let's be honest, we're "the left" that engages with you - then stop trying to smear us.

Keri said...

"You read lots of lefties, how may of them who claim to be "anti-Zionist..."

I don't know about Jeremy, but precisely none of the lefties I read are either tacit or implicit supporters of Hamas, and neither do they consider themselves - or call themselves - "anti-Zionist"

Besides which, the rest of the quote you've included:

"lets just hope that the voters of Wentworth are smart enough to see that even the more “moderate” tip of the leftist Ice-berg that wears a Ruddite face conceals a rather more nasty and extreme ideology"

suggests that you believe that "even the more "moderate"" of us conceal a "nasty and extreme ideology"

I've yet to see a single lefty with whom I am acquainted declare support for Hamas. Have you, Iain? Can you name one of us who does?

"examine some of the things that are being openly said by your fellow lefties in the light of the attacks against Hamas in Gaza"

My fellow lefties? As I've said, not one of of the lefties amongst my acquaintance, or even those I read or comment at has expressed anything other than condemnation of Hamas. I don't read LP, nor the Bolt/Blair watch project. I'll check out the Bolt Blair one, but the LP comment threads suck the life out of me.

iainhall said...

Jeremy.

Shared, as you admit, by none of the lefties with whom you argue.

Certainly I am willing to accept neither you nor Keri seem to exhibit any anti Semitism but I would not say the same about "Suburban Marxist" THR and a who swag of other lefties that I occasionally cross swords with Then there are the real out there lefty anti-Semites like Daniel" who claimed suicide bombing targeting civilians is justified.

So your point is stupid. You're trying to tar us with a view we expressly don't share. You don't even follow your accusations of anti-Semitism among the left with an acknowledgement that you know that pretty much every lefty with whom you argue condemns Hamas.
I did not set out to "tar' anyone with any brush Jeremy, remember this all stems from John Surname trying to be a smart-arse at Leon's blog and to smear me by attributing words that I never said. and then he, "Terry" and Greado were desperate to find anything even vaguely like the quote. I have no problem admitting that the post it comes from had its fair share of hyperbole, but so what? Its a blog post not writing on a stone tablet or an academic thesis. It was aimed fair and square at a pre-election ALP not the lefties that I argue against. Context, Jeremy, context.

If you want to have a serious debate with any of us - and let's be honest, we're "the left" that engages with you - then stop trying to smear us.

If you are the lefties that I argue against so often then you should know by now that when I want to attack something that you have said or done as individuals then I name them and point out their specific sins. I was not doing that at all when I wrote the post and I certainly did not cite it in the comment thread at Leon's blog anyway.When I did write it Israel was not at even at war in Gaza.

Keri


I don't know about Jeremy, but precisely none of the lefties I read are either tacit or implicit supporters of Hamas, and neither do they consider themselves - or call themselves - "anti-Zionist"


What about the afore mentioned THR?

See my response to Jeremy above

suggests that you believe that "even the more "moderate"" of us conceal a "nasty and extreme ideology"

I was talking about the ALP Keri. Not your little cadre at all.

I've yet to see a single lefty with whom I am acquainted declare support for Hamas. Have you, Iain? Can you name one of us who does?
By my definition any lefty who makes excuses for the methodology of Hamas, either the use of suicide bombing, their extra judicial killings, the firing of rockets into Israel is "supporting" them Take a bow Suburban Marxist, THR, and "Daniel" who used to comment a fair bit a Jeremy's blogs is right out there about his anti Semitism

My fellow lefties? As I've said, not one of of the lefties amongst my acquaintance, or even those I read or comment at has expressed anything other than condemnation of Hamas. I don't read LP, nor the Bolt/Blair watch project. I'll check out the Bolt Blair one, but the LP comment threads suck the life out of me.

Well you check them out Keri because I don't just read what you and your friends write on the net, I look all around the place and if I am making a generalisation about "the left" don't assume that it is an observation about just the few lefties that YOU know .

thr said...

My ears were burning.

So Suburban Marxist and I are the same person? Any evidence of this? This should be news to the Grodskyites who, as I understand it, have met SM and I. (Though it's true, we've never been seen in a room at the same time).

As for the smear that SM and I 'exhibit' anti-semitism - care to provide any quotes of mine as proof? I could be Jewish for all you know, you bearded degenerate.

Anyway, you made the claim, so you back it up.

iainhall said...

My ears were burning.
Yeah like I care

So Suburban Marxist and I are the same person? Any evidence of this? This should be news to the Grodskyites who, as I understand it, have met SM and I. (Though it's true, we've never been seen in a room at the same time).

WTF? I never said that you and SM were the same person.

As for the smear that SM and I 'exhibit' anti-Semitism - care to provide any quotes of mine as proof? I could be Jewish for all you know, you bearded degenerate.

I love my sanity far too much to trawl through all of your turgid prose in search of "proof" of your anti-Semitism but the post you wrote defending Rose Jackson give a pretty good indication of the way you lean on the subject. Likewise your most recent post on the situation is chock full of the usual stuff about occupied people having the right to resist their oppressors ect ect. You find a justification for the firing of rockets and mortars into Israel on the basis that it is "self defence".

None of this should be interpreted as 'support' for Hamas, though Hamas, like everybody else, has the right to defend itself. Religion can be incidental to liberation politics, but I see no reason to believe that religion alone, in the absence of a liberation agenda, can free the Palestinians in a political sense.
source

How can you be taken seriously? you claim that your post is not about giving "support" for Hamas and yet you claim they have the right to "self defence" while earlier in your peace you had made the case that Israel was the aggressor in this situation. the more that I think about it the more clear it is that you are the sort of deluded lefty who may genuinely think that you are "anti-Zionist" (as acknowledged by other commentators on your blog) when you are clearly anti-Semitic.
As for the possibility that you my be Jewish yourself, well it has not stopped Anthony Lowenstein being anti Semitic so why would it stop you?

Anyway, you made the claim, so you back it up.
Done and dusted matey.
Cheers

Jeremy said...

"you claim that your post is not about giving "support" for Hamas and yet you claim they have the right to "self defence" "

I think anyone who defends the killing of children by either side has some moral issues to answer.

You wouldn't suggest that it's okay for Israel to bomb children in "self-defence", now, would you Iain?

"As for the possibility that you my be Jewish yourself, well it has not stopped Anthony Lowenstein being anti Semitic so why would it stop you?"

Yes it has. Unless you define "anti-Semitic" as "critical of Israel", which is ridiculous.

iainhall said...

I think anyone who defends the killing of children by either side has some moral issues to answer.You wouldn't suggest that it's okay for Israel to bomb children in "self-defence", now, would you Iain?
Of course not Jeremy but you can't blame Israel for the deaths of children in Gaza when the cowards from Hamas use their own children as human shields while firing on Israel, or the IDF.



Yes it has. Unless you define "anti-Semitic" as "critical of Israel", which is ridiculous.
But Lowenstien is not just critical of Israel, he believes that the state of Israel should not exist, just like Hamas does.

Kartar said...

@iainhall

But Lowenstien is not just critical of Israel, he believes that the state of Israel should not exist, just like Hamas does.

Huh? How does that make him anti-Semitic rather than an 'anti-Zionist' or simply not a Zionist. Anti-Semitic would imply he believes "all Jews are bad" versus "Not supporting Israel".

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about the difference between the two.

iainhall said...

Katar
My point is simply that the distinction between being anti Zionist and Anti Semitic is not as hard and fast as so many on the left want to believe.
Lowenstein may be just as conflicted about Israel as a "poofter basher" may be about his own homosexual urges and desires.

Kartar said...

@iainhall - Then prove it. You haven't managed to cite a single reference that articulates any fuzziness between disagreement with Zionism and anti-Semitism.

I am acquainted with Ant - and "may" doesn't cut it as an argument - cite me a single example of Ant's writing where he is anti-Semitic?

Or is this just, as stated earlier, a massive sweeping generalisation?

thr said...

WTF? I never said that you and SM were the same person.

Actually, you did:

Certainly I am willing to accept neither you nor Keri seem to exhibit any anti Semitism but I would not say the same about "Suburban Marxist" THR...

Use a comma, you fucking moron. What Israel does to Palestine, you do to the English language.


You mentioned 2 of my posts, and have failed to identify anti-semitism, defined as:

Antisemitism (correctly spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism; but also sometimes known as Judeophobia) is prejudice against or hostility toward Jews. This prejudice or hostility is usually characterized by a combination of religious, racial, cultural and ethnic biases. While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, since its creation it has been used exclusively to refer to hostility toward Jews.[1][2]

Antisemitism may be manifested in many ways, ranging from individual expressions of hatred and discrimination against individual Jews to organized violent attacks by mobs or even state police or military attacks on entire Jewish communities. Extreme instances of persecution include the First Crusade of 1096, the expulsion from England in 1290, the Spanish Inquisition, the expulsion from Spain in 1492, the expulsion from Portugal in 1497, various pogroms, and the most infamous, the Holocaust under Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti_Semitism

Or, more simply:

discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews.

Since I believe in universal principles, and have expressed as much, there is no possibility that I have been 'anti-semitic'.


You find a justification for the firing of rockets and mortars into Israel on the basis that it is "self defence".
It may be self-defence - it depends on the context and the target.

How can you be taken seriously? you claim that your post is not about giving "support" for Hamas and yet you claim they have the right to "self defence" while earlier in your peace you had made the case that Israel was the aggressor in this situation.

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word 'support'. As recently as the 1980s, many Australians and US citizens supported the IRA, financially and otherwise. Only a cretin would believe that the IRA didn't have some legimitate grievances, however poorly they were expressed. I don't donate to Hamas. But yes, Israel is the aggresor in this situation. Any honest discussion of Israel and Palestine must acknowledge the human toll of colonialism, blockade, and occupation against the Palestinian people. If you want to inquire about legimitimate resistance tactics, then fine, but such a cretin as to think there is nothing to resist. Even Israelis themselves don't believe that.


the more that I think about it the more clear it is that you are the sort of deluded lefty who may genuinely think that you are "anti-Zionist" (as acknowledged by other commentators on your blog) when you are clearly anti-Semitic.

I'm more a non-zionist than an 'anti-zionist'. I don't really care if the IDF is run be Seventh Day Adventist Rastafarians - I'm more concerned with the ongoing campaign of ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians.

In any case, it's you who are being anti-semitic here, by conflating a political position (i.e. Zionism) with ethnic/religious identity (i.e. Jewish). Many Jewish are not Zionists, just as many Zionists are not Jews. I suspect you know very little about Zionism, which has both right and left wing variations, but which, taken to its extreme, is every bit as racist as apartheid ideology.


You're playing humpty dumpty again, trying to twist words to fit your own perverse understanding of them. If you can find, in my writings, evidence of 'hatred or prejudice' against Jews, then by all means share it. Since it doesn't exist, you wish to retract your smear.

Finally:

My point is simply that the distinction between being anti Zionist and Anti Semitic is not as hard and fast as so many on the left want to believe.
No, it's perfectly hard and fast. Look at the definition of each and it's perfectly clear, unless you take the racist step (which you have) of identifying all Jews with Zionism.

Lowenstein may be just as conflicted about Israel as a "poofter basher" may be about his own homosexual urges and desires.

Or just as conflicted as an illiterate right-wing pig-fucker might be about his own urges to demonises Palestinians, Muslims generally, 'homosexualists', 'teh left (TM)', etc ;)

Keri said...

"Lowenstein may be just as conflicted about Israel as a "poofter basher" may be about his own homosexual urges and desires."

So Lowenstein secretly wants to have sex with Israel? And considering your own line on gay marriage, Iain.....

"Of course not Jeremy but you can't blame Israel for the deaths of children in Gaza when the cowards from Hamas use their own children as human shields while firing on Israel, or the IDF."

There's a difference between a terrorist/militant hiding directly behind a child in the street and Israel bombing a school because it might have terrorists in it.

And in my book, there is NO justification for deliberately bombing a school with children in it - I don't give a shit if Satan, Ghengis Khan, Osama Bin Laden and Hitler are having a tea party on the front bloody lawn. Israel should stay it's hand in those cases.

And that nothing to do with the fact that it's Israel doing the bombing - I take the same line with every country who uses military force. Especially those who have the means to do otherwise.

"this all stems from John Surname trying to be a smart-arse at Leon's blog and to smear me by attributing words that I never said"

Hardly, Iain. We've been through this. Even you admitted that what he attributed to you meant exactly the same as what you said. The exact wording may have been incorrect, but the sentiment was the same. You've admitted that. Move on.

Likewise, considering there have been - how many? - lefties who've declared their outright condemnation of Hamas and their tactics, compared with the one you've been able to link to who hasn't, I would consider that you've failed to make the case that "most" or "the left" "in general" hate Jews, or "Israel in particular"

iainhall said...

Kartar


I am acquainted with Ant - and "may" doesn't cut it as an argument - cite me a single example of Ant's writing where he is anti-Semitic?



As I said ,advocating for the dissolution of the Israeli state does it for me.

Hap

Use a comma, you fucking moron. What Israel does to Palestine, you do to the English language.

What a juvenile beginning to what is a very turgid piece of invective from you, remember the last time that you insisted that you were so much better at English that me and I proved you wrong by just spell checking the front page of your blog? more on this later.

You mentioned 2 of my posts, and have failed to identify anti-semitism(sic), defined as:

Do you really think that I care just what Wikipedia says? It proves nowt.

Or, more simply:

discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews.
Ah but on your own more simple definition the post I cite certainly show clear hostility to the Jews, demonstrates prejudice against them, and in my book two out of three ain't bad.

Since I believe in universal principles, and have expressed as much, there is no possibility that I have been 'anti-semitic(sic)'.

Really? what makes you think that the "universal principles" you believe in are true correct and beyond question? Your jihadi pals think that their principles are universal as well so are they the same as yours?

You find a justification for the firing of rockets and mortars into Israel on the basis that it is "self defence".(Iain)
It may be self-defence - it depends on the context and the target.

Just how can any of the unguided rockets fired into Israel before the beginning of operation "cast lead" began be self defence? Especially when they were aimed at civilians and not the IDF?

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word 'support'. As recently as the 1980s, many Australians and US citizens supported the IRA, financially and otherwise. Only a cretin would believe that the IRA didn't have some legimitate(sic) grievances, however poorly they were expressed. I don't donate to Hamas. But yes, Israel is the aggresor(sic) in this situation. Any honest discussion of Israel and Palestine must acknowledge the human toll of colonialism, blockade, and occupation against the Palestinian people. If you want to inquire about legimitimate(sic) resistance tactics, then fine, but such a cretin as to think there is nothing to resist. Even Israelis themselves don't believe that.

What on earth does the IRA have to do with this topic? Does "legitimate resistance tactics" include blowing up buses and coffee shops?

After the IDF pulled out from Gaza the Palestinians had an opportunity to make the lives of their people better but the chose the gun and the missile over making a better future, and Israel would have left them in peace had the Palestinians been prepared to stop the missiles, six thousand since the pull out and you say the Israelis are the aggressors? It took only one shot in Sarajevo to start the first world war... and you expected that Israel should stoically endure thousands of missiles and mortar rounds?

I'm more a non-zionist(sic) than an 'anti-zionist'(sic). I don't really care if the IDF is run be Seventh Day Adventist Rastafarians - I'm more concerned with the ongoing campaign of ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians.

A "non-zionist(sic)" ? WTF do you mean by that

You are deluded if you think that there is any kind of "ethnic cleansing campaign" against the Palestinians Their numbers keep increasing

In any case, it's you who are being anti-semitic(sic) here, by conflating a political position (i.e. Zionism) with ethnic/religious identity (i.e. Jewish). Many Jewish are not Zionists, just as many Zionists are not Jews. I suspect you know very little about Zionism, which has both right and left wing variations, but which, taken to its extreme, is every bit as racist as apartheid ideology.

How dull you are Hap and you underestimate me as usual.

You're playing humpty(sic) dumpty(sic) again, trying to twist words to fit your own perverse understanding of them. If you can find, in my writings, evidence of 'hatred or prejudice' against Jews, then by all means share it. Since it doesn't exist, you [may] wish to retract your smear.

I already have made my case and no further argument is necessary. That you consider your own position on Israel and Palestine to be morally defensible is something for your own conscience.

Finally:

My point is simply that the distinction between being anti Zionist and Anti Semitic is not as hard and fast as so many on the left want to believe.(Iain)
No, it's perfectly hard and fast. Look at the definition of each and it's perfectly clear, unless you take the racist step (which you have) of identifying all Jews with Zionism.

Have I really? The point that I make is that for so many lefties who claim to be anti-Zionist is that they do so as an covert way of expressing their anti-Semitic views. that they dare not express any other way, no amount of you citing definitions and insisting that you stay on the right side of the line will dissuade me that you are guilty of doing just that.

Or just as conflicted as an illiterate right-wing pig-fucker might be about his own urges to demonises(sic) Palestinians, Muslims generally, 'homosexualists', 'teh(sic) left (TM)', etc ;)

Finally would you care to count your own errors in spelling that I have highlighted here? it puts my one absent coma into a rather different light, especially as I have not claimed, as you have of me, that you are "illiterate".

Pot meet Kettle.


Keri

There's a difference between a terrorist/militant hiding directly behind a child in the street and Israel bombing a school because it might have terrorists in it.

There is part of me that accepts your good intentions here but I just cant see that there is a real distinction to be made here, using human shields, is a war crime and it is Hamas that do this all of the time

And in my book, there is NO justification for deliberately bombing a school with children in it - I don't give a shit if Satan, Ghengis Khan, Osama Bin Laden and Hitler are having a tea party on the front bloody lawn. Israel should stay it's hand in those cases.

That is naive to the nth degree, would you have said the same thing about the siege of Beslan?

And that nothing to do with the fact that it's Israel doing the bombing - I take the same line with every country who uses military force. Especially those who have the means to do otherwise.

The point is that Israel has been trying to do otherwise for years and what they get in return is suicide bombings and an unending rain of missiles from Gaza. Do you really expect that they should have put up with that for ever?

The exact wording may have been incorrect,

which is precisely why I took umbridge as you have when you have been misquoted.

Likewise, considering there have been - how many? - lefties who've declared their outright condemnation of Hamas and their tactics, compared with the one you've been able to link to who hasn't, I would consider that you've failed to make the case that "most" or "the left" "in general" hate Jews, or "Israel in particular"

What part of my saying that this statement was aimed in particular at the ALP don't you get?
Also in your update you suggest that the post that the quote comes from is quite recent when in fact it was written BEFORE the last general election...

Bridgit Gread said...

Or just as conflicted as an illiterate right-wing pig-fucker might be about his own urges to demonises(sic) Palestinians, Muslims generally, 'homosexualists', 'teh(sic) left (TM)', etc ;)

Oh look out - Sgt. IC Hall and his partner Det. MS Word are on the spelling case again. 'Demonises' is the correct British-English spelling, Iain. But I know, I know - "English is a flexible living thing and we all strive to achieve mastery..." etc.

iainhall said...

Bridgit
I have five different dictionaries for English in my Firefox browser and all of them show that word to be spelt wrong.
But that is not the point as you well know. Even if you are right (always possible I suppose)then it does not lessen the substantive point that I made in my comment, namely Hap's errors in English are greater and more frequent than mine.

Keri said...

"As I said ,advocating for the dissolution of the Israeli state does it for me"

That's not anti-semitic, Iain. Unless THR's position on Israel being recognised as a nation is in response to them being Jewish, can you explain exactly why you think it's anti-semitism?

"Your jihadi pals think that their principles are universal as well so are they the same as yours?"

Back this comment up or I'll ask you to repost your comment without it, Iain. What you're accusing both Hap of and his "pals" is quite serious. I won't have it.

"There is part of me that accepts your good intentions here but I just cant see that there is a real distinction to be made here, using human shields, is a war crime and it is Hamas that do this all of the time"

The distinction is that Israel - and I want you to pay very close attention to the next thing I say - always has a choice. There is always a choice. You can choose not to take action that you know will result in the deaths of 422 children. It might make it harder to achieve what you need to achieve, but that's what choice and Statehood is all about. making the right choices. And not just for yourself, but for others as well.

"That is naive to the nth degree, would you have said the same thing about the siege of Beslan?"

Please, Iain. You might want to pick an allegory that

a) is a conflict, not a hostage situation.
b) lasted longer than three days.
c) Didn't result in wide-spread condemnation not only for the force and casualties that ensued but allegations of corruption, media manipulation, outright falsehood and Putin extending his power-base significantly.


And even it that situation was comparable, I would have said the same thing. The cost was too high to innocent people - mainly children.

"The point is that Israel has been trying to do otherwise for years and what they get in return is suicide bombings and an unending rain of missiles from Gaza. Do you really expect that they should have put up with that for ever?"

"Unending rain of missiles?" Um, Iain, do you have any idea of the one-sided nature of this conflict? The fact that Israel has endured less than a third of the casualties that Palestine has?

And there is always a choice, as I've said. A choice in targets, a choice in response.

"which is precisely why I took umbridge as you have when you have been misquoted."

Iain, the times you've quoted me or linked to me, you've manipulated what I've said, attributed a completely different meaning or just linked to something to get a response. And I've never complained that you "misquoted" me at all. That in itself is incorrect.

"What part of my saying that this statement was aimed in particular at the ALP don't you get?
Also in your update you suggest that the post that the quote comes from is quite recent when in fact it was written BEFORE the last general election..."


Iain, you've said in this thread and in the thread at Leon's blog that you don't back away from the statement, and that there is "far more anti-semitism on the left than you'd like to believe"

You've yet to provide any evidence to that fact. Leon's attempt was to link to right-wingers postulating as to WHY that was the case without ever proving that it was.

Are you going to go the same route? Or are you - just for once - going to provide the God damned numbers?

Actually, I mentioned that the post was in relation to the last election. I also linked to the source. I suggested no such thing.

thr said...

I've already provided 2 definitions of anti-semitism, none of which come remotely close to anything exhibited by the left as a whole.
The UN and human rights groups have extensive concerns about IDF human rights abuses. Are we to conclude that they too are members of the 'anti-semitic left'?

What steps toward peace do you think that Israel has taken in this conflict? The building of settlements? The frequent incursions and 'extra-judicial killing' of anybody deemed to be an enemy? The blockade, by which food, aid and medicine has been deliberately withheld from Palestinians? The funding of a coup against Hamas? The mass slaughter of civilians, on increasingly dubious grounds of 'self-defence'?

In the meantime, you prattle on about Hamas tactics, without acknowledging that Israel too places military installations near civilians. You also neglect to mention that Hamas has not been responsible for any suicide attacks for years. Much of the Palestinian resistance (during the intifada, for instance) has involved perfectly legitimate attacks on IDF forces, sometimes by little more than children throwing rocks.
There is no possible way that criticism of IDF atrocities and Israeli Govt policy can be construed as 'anti-semitic', unless one conflates the IDF/Govt with Jews in their entirety. Since no lefty in this thread has done that, there is no evidence whatsoever of anti-semitism. If you can back up your pathetic slurs, why don't you present us with some evidence.

Bridgit Gread said...

Iain, did you learn spelling at school from Mozilla, Netscape or IE? Actually, did you learn spelling at school?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=demonise

And let me put your mind at rest: the amount of spelling errors and the extent of garbled expression in your writing are exponentially greater than in THR's.

thr said...

He also thinks 'anti-semitism'.

Iain, since you live in Dogs Balls, Queensland, and have probably never met a Jew in your life, it's understandable that you confuse Jews with Zionists.
Listen, when you summon the courage to fly without an adult diaper, or when you get that noddy car working, come down to the big smoke and meet a few Australia Jews. They should be able to set you straight on the difference between a Jew and a Zionist. They'll probably even tell that the more fanatical Zionists are pretty racist and bigoted. At the moment, you're being racist by pretending that the criticism of Zionist military policies is somehow a reflection on all Jews. Do some research.

iainhall said...

Hap
Seeing that you chide me about an omitted comma, then I feel entirely justified in citing you failing to capitalise both "Semite" and Zionism (and their derivatives). What excuse do you make for the other errors in your text?
They should be able to set you straight on the difference between a Jew and a Zionist. They'll probably even tell that the more fanatical Zionists are pretty racist and bigoted. At the moment, you're being racist by pretending that the criticism of Zionist military policies is somehow a reflection on all Jews. Do some research.
You see I am very well aware of the difference between a Zionist and a Jew. My point is not in any sense based on my confusing one for the other. It is based upon the subterfuge of lefties like yourself who claim to oppose the former when they really despise the later.

Jeremy said...

If "Anti-Zionist" is defined as not thinking there should be any governments run in favour of a particular religion and ethnicity - ie, there shouldn't be a "Jewish State" any more than there should be a "Christian State" or a "Muslim State", then I suppose you could call me "anti-Zionist". But only if that's your definition, in which case everyone but religious fundamentalists would be "anti-Zionist".

iainhall said...

Fair enough Jeremy

thr said...

It is based upon the subterfuge of lefties like yourself who claim to oppose the former when they really despise the later.

Still waiting on your evidence that I 'despise' Jews. You made the statement, so back it up.

*Chirping of crickets*